Doctor Strange: Multiverse of Madness

[Brian G.]

Looks at everyone loving Moon Knights episode about the character and has nothing...nothing to do with the MCU

Think its evolving, and I want more stories that are good...if Thor 4 doesn't connect to the major story but as an amazing villain (which they keep hyping up) and a great story then wonderful. I rather this then the rumors of Mando apearing in Obi Wan....and kinda ruining part of the boba fett show (not saying the Mando episode isn't good...but come on its boba show focus on him)
Too much focus on the story can have very negative affects as well. As a villain once said....balance

But I'm just giving you a heads up.....I don't think until next year anything is about the major story...its about exploring the characters and worlds more.

I'm not saying every movie or show has to connect, but we've reached 10 pieces of media without a real clear direction. Iron, Thor, Capt America... all great films that advanced the character while also planting seeds of the larger picture. You can have both.

 

[Nick]

I liked it. Definitely the most visually creative MCU film, IMO. There are definitely a lot of issues, especially the pace and some story choices, but otherwise had a good, fun time.

My biggest issue with the MCU so far is there is no clear direction as to what we're heading towards. With Iron Man, we knew we were getting to the Avengers Team-Up, and after Avengers, we knew the endgame (no pun intended) was Thanos. We've had 5 films and 5 shows, and we're still kinda clueless as to where the MCU is going. It seems likely that there will be an incursion that could set up Secret Wars, which I expect Ant-Man 3 to open up that door but it just kinda seems like they're running in place as of right now.

We do have a big narrative, the problem is we're taking from Marvel Comics' deep deep cuts at this point so if you don't already know who the person in the mid-credits scene is, then you are completely lost. If you do know, then it points you in the right direction. Basically, we're headed straight towards Secret Wars.

Spoiler

I will say having all of these females taking basically the same exact power of their male counterpart is starting to get old? I'm certainly not against females having their own characters, but i'd much rather they have their own identities like Captain Marvel, Black Widow, Wanda, America Chavez, Ms. Marvel, etc.

As far as characters that basically are the same as their male counterparts, we've had or are getting:

• Iron Man & Rescue (and eventually Ironheart)
• Ant Man & Wasp
• Thor & Mighty Thor
• Clint Barton's Hawkeye & Kate Bishop's Hawkeye
• Loki and Sylvie

and now we're going to have Doctor Strange (or probably more accurately Sinister Strange) and Clea. I just think like, sure, it's good representation, but it'd be great if they had more of their own unique identity.

Also real quick, at the end of the movie, do you think that Strange ended up back in 616 or is the reason they ran into Clea because they ended up in an alternative universe again?

 

[Brian G.]

We do have a big narrative, the problem is we're taking from Marvel Comics' deep deep cuts at this point so if you don't already know who the person in the mid-credits scene is, then you are completely lost. If you do know, then it points you in the right direction. Basically, we're headed straight towards Secret Wars.

Spoiler

I will say having all of these females taking basically the same exact power of their male counterpart is starting to get old? I'm certainly not against females having their own characters, but i'd much rather they have their own identities like Captain Marvel, Black Widow, Wanda, America Chavez, Ms. Marvel, etc.

As far as characters that basically are the same as their male counterparts, we've had or are getting:

• Iron Man & Rescue
• Ant Man & Wasp
• Thor & Mighty Thor
• Clint Barton's Hawkeye & Kate Bishop's Hawkeye
• Loki and Sylvie

and now we're going to have Doctor Strange (or probably more accurately Sinister Strange) and Clea. I just think like, sure, it's good representation, but it'd be great if they had more of their own unique identity.

Also real quick, at the end of the movie, do you think that Strange ended up back in 616 or is the reason they ran into Clea because they ended up in an alternative universe again?

I believe he's back.

As far as your points:

Spoiler

Counterparts: I actually just put those 2 together since you mentioned it. And coming up, we have Hulk and She-Hulk, and it seems the Panther mantle will pass to a female, which I'm hoping is Nakia instead of Shuri.

I agree, however. There's a wealth of female superheroes who haven't gotten their due in the MCU, or even in prior films. Storm, for example, is a friggin' boss who was criminally underused in the Fox films.

As far as the Multi-verse/Secret Wars - I thought we would've already gotten more closer to that. It seems Phase 4 has 22 films & shows (Not counting random one-offs like What If? and "specials" like GOTG: Holiday) to get through and we're about halfway there. We've had 4 plots that deal with the Multiverse and it seems now we're getting to... something but its still not entirely clear. I just don't know if that incursion affects 616's Earth or solely a Dark Dimension issue.

 

[Nick]

I believe he's back.

As far as your points:

Spoiler

Counterparts: I actually just put those 2 together since you mentioned it. And coming up, we have Hulk and She-Hulk, and it seems the Panther mantle will pass to a female, which I'm hoping is Nakia instead of Shuri.

I agree, however. There's a wealth of female superheroes who haven't gotten their due in the MCU, or even in prior films. Storm, for example, is a friggin' boss who was criminally underused in the Fox films.

As far as the Multi-verse/Secret Wars - I thought we would've already gotten more closer to that. It seems Phase 4 has 22 films & shows (Not counting random one-offs like What If? and "specials" like GOTG: Holiday) to get through and we're about halfway there. We've had 4 plots that deal with the Multiverse and it seems now we're getting to... something but its still not entirely clear. I just don't know if that incursion affects 616's Earth or solely a Dark Dimension issue.

I actually kinda feel like Phase 4 is going to end sooner than people think. We'll probably find out at Comic-Con or at the latest D23 about Phase 5, but It seems logical to me to start Phase 5 with something like Blade and then probably go into Deadpool 3 or Fantastic Four, all of which are films that are a bit separated from things we have currently going on. Blade fits in with Black Knight and Moon Knight, but i'm not sure how they'll tie Deadpool into all of this. There's probably a Doctor Strange 3 that will be announced, hopefully with Raimi directing again. If Secret Wars is actually happening (or something like it), I expect it to be announced by D23.

 

[HalfGlass]

I’m mostly in agreement here…I didn’t hate it, but the movie felt like one of the biggest letdowns in the MCU thus far given what’s led up to this. I found the story to be mediocre and let down by a terrible ending that made the entire thing feel inconsequential…

Spoiler

This is basically the ending of the movie and ultimately what led to me not being a huge fan of it...

Wanda: "I will destroy everything and anyone who comes in my path because I want a life with my kids"

Strange : "just let her see her kids"

(Wanda sees her kids)

Wanda: "You're right, I'm a monster, sorry, my bad"


At least the cameos were cool - even if they felt completely like fan service and didn’t need to be in the film at all.

 

[Jerroddragon]

Lol

This film is wayyyy more Entertaining then Thor 1

I think people wanted this film to be just strange going universe to universe not growing as a character but bumping into the next cameo

The film had a great villain, didn’t hold it punches in horror or action, dr strange had a great arc, a good introduction to American chavez, Wong got more screen time and rachel mcadams character got to do thing finally
Along with the cameos we did get were great, like these pleased basically every kinda fan

also they didn’t beat the bad guy by punching it to death just like the first film they used their brains to win

 

[belloq87]

I'm genuinely surprised by the "low" (a relative term) CinemaScore. My packed audience seemed to eat the thing up.

I do think, more broadly, that CinemaScore needs to figure out a better way to categorize reactions, because in no universe should a "B+" grade on anything be perceived as bad, yet that's basically the way it works right now.

 

[Nick]

I’m mostly in agreement here…I didn’t hate it, but the movie felt like one of the biggest letdowns in the MCU thus far given what’s led up to this. I found the story to be mediocre and let down by a terrible ending that made the entire thing feel inconsequential…

Spoiler

This is basically the ending of the movie and ultimately what led to me not being a huge fan of it...

Wanda: "I will destroy everything and anyone who comes in my path because I want a life with my kids"

Strange : "just let her see her kids"

(Wanda sees her kids)

Wanda: "You're right, I'm a monster, sorry, my bad"


At least the cameos were cool - even if they felt completely like fan service and didn’t need to be in the film at all.

I'm genuinely surprised by the "low" (a relative term) CinemaScore. My packed audience seemed to eat the thing up.

I do think, more broadly, that CinemaScore needs to figure out a better way to categorize reactions, because in no universe should a "B+" grade on anything be perceived as bad, yet that's basically the way it works right now.

If I can for a moment...

CinemaScore is all about Expectations vs. Reality. The trailers didn't show nearly as much of the horror/supernatural elements as there actually was in the film, which may have lead to some having their expectations subverted, which lead to them giving a lower score.

There's also the expectations not being met factor when it comes to cameos. Sure there where cameos, but some had their hopes way too high and were banking on certain things to happen, causing them to feel let down.

This was a Supernatural/Horror film. The fact that it got a B+ is slightly above average for a good Supernatural/Horror film. The average score for the genre is around around a B- for a good film or anywhere in the C range for a mediocre film. people who

I think this film has a lot of things happening to potentially effect it's score, but the only one I think is really all that relevant is that there were no real consequences to the larger MCU in this movie as in deaths. If these movies are meant to feel like event movies, they need to start to have higher stakes. I mean, we assume Wanda will be fine, right? Hell, they're making an Agatha show.

 

[HalfGlass]

If I can for a moment...

CinemaScore is all about Expectations vs. Reality. The trailers didn't show nearly as much of the horror/supernatural elements as there actually was in the film, which may have lead to some having their expectations subverted, which lead to them giving a lower score.

There's also the expectations not being met factor when it comes to cameos. Sure there where cameos, but some had their hopes way too high and were banking on certain things to happen, causing them to feel let down.

This was a Supernatural/Horror film. The fact that it got a B+ is slightly above average for a good Supernatural/Horror film. The average score for the genre is around around a B- for a good film or anywhere in the C range for a mediocre film. people who

I think this film has a lot of things happening to potentially effect it's score, but the only one I think is really all that relevant is that there were no real consequences to the larger MCU in this movie as in deaths. If these movies are meant to feel like event movies, they need to start to have higher stakes. I mean, we assume Wanda will be fine, right? Hell, they're making an Agatha show.

Expectations or not - CinemaScore is usually the best sign of how people talk about the film in the immediate future. So it’ll be interesting to see if this has as much legs as most MCU movies do at the box office.

And yes - I agree that it is from a snapshot in time and the longer time goes on some movies are remembered more fondly. But out of all the MCU movies, there’s probably only three times I left a theater feeling kind of empty from the experience…Ant-Man & the Wasp, Eternals and this.

Commenting on @Brian G. observation…I think some of the disappointment can also stem from the fact that this movie post-Spider-Man and Loki felt like it would be the next step in providing some sort of roadmap or inkling of where things are heading, and it didn’t outside of a little potential tidbit at the end.

I also personally feel this lack of enthusiasm because the characters from Phase 1-3 completed their original journey for the most part, and the new characters in Phase 4 (Moon Knight, America Chavez, Agatha, Eternals, etc) just aren’t that interesting or the way their stories were told aren’t that interesting. I have no excitement about seeing Moon Knight show up in an MCU movie. Like even when Ant-Man, a lesser loved character, showed up in Civil War, I cheered!

Granted I realize this is what the comics do, they sort of reset and start anew, but outside of Spider-Man: NWH, there hasn’t been a Phase 4 entry yet that I would put as anything above mid-tier MCU.

 

[Nick]

Expectations or not - CinemaScore is usually the best sign of how people talk about the film in the immediate future. So it’ll be interesting to see if this has as much legs as most MCU movies do at the box office.

And yes - I agree that it is from a snapshot in time and the longer time goes on some movies are remembered more fondly. But out of all the MCU movies, there’s probably only three times I left a theater feeling kind of empty from the experience…Ant-Man & the Wasp, Eternals and this.

Commenting on @Brian G. observation…I think some of the disappointment can also stem from the fact that this movie post-Spider-Man and Loki felt like it would be the next step in providing some sort of roadmap or inkling of where things are heading, and it didn’t outside of a little potential tidbit at the end.

I also personally feel this lack of enthusiasm because the characters from Phase 1-3 completed their original journey for the most part, and the new characters in Phase 4 (Moon Knight, America Chavez, Agatha, Eternals, etc) just aren’t that interesting or the way their stories were told aren’t that interesting. I have no excitement about seeing Moon Knight show up in an MCU movie. Like even when Ant-Man, a lesser loved character, showed up in Civil War, I cheered!

Granted I realize this is what the comics do, they sort of reset and start anew, but outside of Spider-Man: NWH, there hasn’t been a Phase 4 entry yet that I would put as anything above mid-tier MCU.

Oh I agree about that it's a good way to normally predict how a film will perform longterm, but this is an MCU film and there hasn't been a B+ CincemaScore or lower outside of the wonky year of 2021 since Thor in 2011. Not that Eternals and Black Widow didn't deserve their scores, but those films were released during a time when people were very hesitant to come back to theaters anyway and add on to that Black Widow had no long-term consequences aside from adding Yelena to the MCU and no one knew who the Eternals were.

I'll be very surprised if Strange doesn't bring in over $1 billion, despite a divided fan base on the film. For example, I still don't know how I feel on the film, but i'm going to see it again and I kinda want to, unlike with Eternals and Black Widow, where I absolutely didn't care in any way to see those again until they came to Disney+.

And what I meant about expectations.... that's literally how CinemaScore finds their scores. They ask questions to Thursday night crowds about how they felt about it. Since these are Thursday night crowds, that means it's the most die-hard of the die-hard. So they'll be critical if they're own expectations weren't met or they felt confused about it or if they just thought there was too much going on kinda like and Eternals. I think Phase Four has had a lot of this because The Infinity Saga was such a natural end if they wanted to do so.

 

[MikePat]

Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness was fun, but Everything Everywhere All at Once is by far the best Multiverse movie of the year.

 

[Nick]

Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness was fun, but Everything Everywhere All at Once is by far the best Multiverse movie of the year.

Yup, I actually said virtually the same thing on here shortly after I saw the movie.

 

[Brian G.]

Regarding some of the hate...

Spoiler

I definitely think there's a portion who hates the movie because there wasn't enough multiverse, especially with all the rumors, and because Wanda went full-on villain (which makes sense if you actually paid attention...). As soon as it was clear that Wanda was the baddie, I turned to my wife and said "people are gonna hate that..."

Also, BO numbers came in. $185m Dom, with $450m WW.

 

[Nick]

Regarding some of the hate...

Spoiler

I definitely think there's a portion who hates the movie because there wasn't enough multiverse, especially with all the rumors, and because Wanda went full-on villain (which makes sense if you actually paid attention...). As soon as it was clear that Wanda was the baddie, I turned to my wife and said "people are gonna hate that..."

Also, BO numbers came in. $185m Dom, with $450m WW.

Spoiler

I'm not sure why people were surprised by that, i've been calling it since WandaVision and thought it was pretty obvious...

About the lack out cameos... get over yourselves. The Marvel fanbase (mostly the twitter population) set themselves up for failure by expecting every Marvel character to show up in this movie. Let us not forget that some things may have been originally planned before COVID changed the release schedule. Remember, MoM was originally supposed to come out LAST May, which was supposed to be before NWH. America Chavez was originally rumored to fill the role that Ned took on to introduce the Spider-Men in that movie.

That's not to say the movie is perfect as it certainly isn't, but complaints like those aren't really the problem with this movie. A better complaint is the logic issue of how easily the Illuminati was destroyed. Captain Marvel killed by a statue? Reed Richards sliced into spaghetti without even really getting to show off any fight, Professor X, Captain Carter, etc. These are all extremely strong characters that at least should've put up a good team fight against her.

 

[Brian G.]

Spoiler

I'm not sure why people were surprised by that, i've been calling it since WandaVision and thought it was pretty obvious...

About the lack out cameos... get over yourselves. The Marvel fanbase (mostly the twitter population) set themselves up for failure by expecting every Marvel character to show up in this movie. Let us not forget that some things may have been originally planned before COVID changed the release schedule. Remember, MoM was originally supposed to come out LAST May, which was supposed to be before NWH. America Chavez was originally rumored to fill the role that Ned took on to introduce the Spider-Men in that movie.

That's not to say the movie is perfect as it certainly isn't, but complaints like those aren't really the problem with this movie. A better complaint is the logic issue of how easily the Illuminati was destroyed. Captain Marvel killed by a statue? Reed Richards sliced into spaghetti without even really getting to show off any fight, Professor X, Captain Carter, etc. These are all extremely strong characters that at least should've put up a good team fight against her.

Spoiler

I think some people interpreted her arc in WandaVision a certain way and didn't want to see the forest for the trees.

100% on the cameos.

I actually disagree with that specific complaint. Wanda is/was untouchable and by MoM, the most powerful being in the Universe; and I think Reed knew that - which is why he tried reason instead of violence. He knew there was no shot. Hell, in Endgame, she was about to kill Thanos with ease before a missile barrage stopped it.

Strange/Wong/America (And that's a pretty strong trio, too) couldn't beat her, she had to defeat herself - so her taking out formidable opponents, especially ones who are essentially strangers to her, with ease seems reasonable.

 

[Nick]

Spoiler

I think some people interpreted her arc in WandaVision a certain way and didn't want to see the forest for the trees.

100% on the cameos.

I actually disagree with that specific complaint. Wanda is/was untouchable and by MoM, the most powerful being in the Universe; and I think Reed knew that - which is why he tried reason instead of violence. He knew there was no shot. Hell, in Endgame, she was about to kill Thanos with ease before a missile barrage stopped it.

Strange/Wong/America (And that's a pretty strong trio, too) couldn't beat her, she had to defeat herself - so her taking out formidable opponents, especially ones who are essentially strangers to her, with ease seems reasonable.

Overall I thought it was a good and fun movie, but it did feel almost a bit too self contained. Writer Michael Waldron and Sam Raimi both admitted to not seeing WandaVision, which as a creative I guess I get not wanting something else to influence your script or movie, but isn’t that the point of a shared Universe? One thing leads into the next?

Spoiler

I’ll admit it’s a nitpicky issue I had about the Illuminati. It also wasn’t that they died I want to make clear, it was more the how, but I guess at that point she was fulfilling her prophecy (as she said) in the temple as the Scarlet Witch, so she was probably even more powerful than she already had become previously.

 

[Jerroddragon]

Those are good numbers

Hopefully that means a healthy summer for movies
Sure Thor, Light year will also do well but here is hoping none Disney films do as well

 

[Nick]

Those are good numbers

Hopefully that means a healthy summer for movies
Sure Thor, Light year will also do well but here is hoping none Disney films do as well

Worldwide numbers are a bit tougher ever since China basically said no more Marvel, and the conflict in Russia and Ukraine takes out two more markets, but I still think this will grab over $1B.

Jurassic World: Dominion will probably be the highest grossing movie of the summer definitely and depending on what Avatar 2 does, maybe of the year, but a lot of Avatar 2’s damage will be done in 2023.

 

[fryoj]

Spoiler

Solid Meh from me. Mainly because it played like a horror movie. I'm just not into that genre. I suspect thats some of the CinemaScore hit as well. People go into MCU movies expecting a certain experience and they aren't expecting a "horror" movie. I get when you get as many movies deep into the MCU as they are, you need some variety in styles. But not every style appeals to everyone.

Wanda as the villain works. Moving forward it does create some questions. She is almost overpowered at this point. Losing the Darkhold helps, so maybe thats part of balancing, but the next time she shows up it either needs to take an Avenger level team to take her on, or she needs the redemption arc and be the deciding factor to take on Kang, Doom, or someone like that.

The illuminati almost played like a comic relief section. On it's own, that's an Avengers level team, and they got smoked in no time. Granted that's partially to set up Wanda as unstoppable, but it's almost insulting to some of the characters. How do they sell Captain Marvel as a bad ass in later movies if she's that easily defeated? Same goes for the future X-men and Fantastic 4 movies. I guess you just have to look at it as fan service, but sheesh. Don't make them look completely worthless.

Overall, the story arc was fine. Not a bad movie, just didn't enjoy it as much as I would have liked.

 

[Nick]

Watched it again and I actually liked it more tonight. Seeing it in the Dolby Cinema helped a lot as the previous theater I saw it in actually had a fairly subpar sound system and this was basically one of the best possible experiences outside of IMAX. This is an interesting movie to describe, but i'd probably call it a Supernatural Horror Fantasy film. Bits of everything. The horror tones are really well done in some parts of this movie, too. Great application of jump scares while also blending in the fantasy and supernatural elements.

The one thought I had that stayed the same for me 100% that I can't just skim over is...

Spoiler

the handling of Wong and another death fake out which was COMPLETELY unrealistic. And then the way he gets up the mountain is extremely sketchy and at one point he's holding on with one hand. I can only suspend disbelief for so long. I love Wong as a character, but I wouldn't have been mad if Wanda had actually killed him there.

At the very least, I wish Raimi had come up with a cooler way to bring Wong back from what seemed to be a fall that would've had him destined for death. It just seemed like it was a bit of an afterthought.

Oh, and I definitely noticed how bland the writing was for Reed and how dry Krasinski's delivery was. I won't judge that too harshly since this isn't a Fantastic Four movie and it was only a quick cameo. I expect much better from a writer/director/actor combo that are working on an actual Fantastic Four project and playing a role within that film. IF Krasinski is the 616 Reed, hopefully he gets aa lot better writing and gives a less bland performance going forward.

(Again, I don't blame the performance in this movie on Krasinski as Raimi was making a Doctor Strange film, not a Fantastic Four film. If he wanted more out of him, he would've gotten it.)