Halloween Horror Nights 35 (UO) - Speculation & Rumors

[Jordan]

After reading all the pages of this debate, setting the communication issue aside, which is a genuine complaint, I think what troubles me most about this debate is the overall entitlement of people in this thread. People who want the option for express aren't losing anything at all. You can absolutely have express every night if you want, but you simply have to pay more for it, and that's really what most people are upset about. I would feel more sympathetic to the people complaining if it didn't boil down to, "I am upset that I can no longer experience this event the way I feel I should be able to at a cheaper price." Regardless of the reason whether it's affordability or unwillingness to pay, that is the core argument being made in totality. Even IU's article can be summarized as the same thing (Sorry, Bryan).

That also underscores the hypocrisy of the position. "It's too hard to see the event in a single night, and therefore I need express." That option is still available to you. The price of two nights of express plus a Rush of Fear is still equal to unlimited Rush of Fear, which is all you would need to see the event at a leisurely pace. People just can't skip the lines every night anymore, so they see that as reduced value to them, even if that's more than they really need. I don't consider this a "cheat code" because obviously one should extract maximum value from something, but you also aren't entitled to that thing indefinitely. For all the claims of loyalty (and I've been going to HHN on both coasts as long as anyone here), it's pretty well known that loyal theme park customers don't drive nearly as much revenue as people who come once; they tend to be less profitable, and that's been evident at Disneyland for years. Express is a pure profit driver, and food, beverage, and merch are not. Giving away express for less money has not been in Universal's interest for almost a decade at this point. Even with the absurd margins at HHN, you probably need to spend at least $400 on those things to equal a single Express pass, and I just strongly doubt anyone is spending $400 every night they go, and if you are, you're not the kind of person who's complaining about unlimited express being removed. This is doubly ironic as express unquestionably makes the event worse for everyone overall, and the most passionate and outspoken fans are likely the largest overusers because they are the ones who know about the passes and will wait in line for it.

This is in no way a defense of Universal constantly raising prices. I'm not defending a corporation for trying to maximize profit, but on the other hand, their hands are tied, and I'd be asking the same question of "Why should some people pay less for the same experience?" and I can't blame them for asking that. I personally have my doubts this will even make the lines better because if they were allegedly only selling a few thousand passes anyway, so it's likely pretty irrelevant at the end of the day.

It just staggers me that people are complaining about a premium product inside of a premium product. This is not oxygen; it is an entertainment product, and as such, you must accept the limitations being offered, and if you don't like it, vote with your wallet. Saying, "Universal doesn't want my money!" is simply not the threat that people think it is.

I see a lot of unverified assumptions being made here. Like the one about Universal making less money from repeat visitors. Personally, I can already verify that Universal will make significantly less money from myself than they did last year, and I'm certain that I'm not the only one. Far from it. There's already been plenty of talk, in this thread alone, much less elsewhere, of people even cancelling portions of their trips or entire trips over this decision. I'm sure many of us will also buy less food & merch (how can we not, if we're busy waiting in line?), which isn't as insignificant as you assume. Alcohol sales used to be this event's life blood for god's sake. Individually we may all be a mere drop in the bucket, but you really think that doesn't add up overall?

It's also very disingenuous to claim we're not losing anything. Affordability is certainly a tangible something, and technically having the option to spend more than you can justify realistically isn't much of an option at all. That's simply not how finances work.

"I am upset that I can no longer experience this event the way I feel I should be able to at a cheaper price."

Still makes more sense than complaining about not possessing a premium ticket option that's "underpriced," no?

 

[Clive]

I see a lot of unverified assumptions being made here. Like the one about Universal making less money from repeat visitors. Personally, I can already verify that Universal will make significantly less money from myself than they did last year, and I'm certain that I'm not the only one. Far from it. There's already been plenty of talk, in this thread alone, much less elsewhere, of people even cancelling portions of their trips or entire trips over this decision. I'm sure many of us will also buy less food & merch (how can we not, if we're busy waiting in line?), which isn't as insignificant as you assume. Alcohol sales used to be this event's life blood for god's sake. Individually we may all be a mere drop in the bucket, but you really think that doesn't add up overall?

It's also very disingenuous to claim we're not losing anything. Affordability is certainly a tangible something, and technically having the option to spend more than you can justify realistically isn't much of an option at all. That's simply not how finances work.


Still makes more sense than complaining about not possessing a premium ticket option that's "underpriced," no?

They’re calling your bluff. And even if 60% of the people threatening to cancel trips actually do, Universal is willing to bet they’ll make up that money in other ways (including single-use Express).

Also, your food/merch argument doesn’t check out at all. If I’m about to go wait in a 30+ minute line, you know what I’m going to grab beforehand? A drink. You know when I’m not going to get one? Right before joining an Express queue that might force me to chug.

You know where I might visit if I don’t have Express and all the lines are long at the peak of the night? The Tribute Store…

I know it’s a bummer for those who’ve come to rely on it, and I say that as someone who very frequently bought Rush of Fear with Express over the years. But queenmetroid is spot on. (And Universal could have communicated this much sooner.)

 

[Jordan]

They’re calling your bluff. And even if 60% of the people threatening to cancel trips actually do, Universal is willing to bet they’ll make up that money in other ways (including single-use Express).

Also, your food/merch argument doesn’t check out at all. If I’m about to go wait in a 30+ minute line, you know what I’m going to grab beforehand? A drink. You know when I’m not going to get one? Right before joining an Express queue that might force me to chug.

You know where I might visit if I don’t have Express and all the lines are long at the peak of the night? The Tribute Store…

I know it’s a bummer for those who’ve come to rely on it, and I say that as someone who very frequently bought Rush of Fear with Express over the years. But queenmetroid is spot on. (And Universal could have communicated this much sooner.)

Does it not negatively affect your likelihood of buying event merch if you're having such a miserable time that you have to visit the Tribute Store out of necessity? I don't know about you, but I'm more likely to buy something advertising the event if I'm actually enjoying myself and not thinking, "Can't do any houses. Lines are too long. How do I burn time?"

You probably won't get a drink before waiting in a 30+ minute line, because these days you have to wait in a 30+ minute line just to get the drink in many locations. Me personally, I like to enjoy my drink with a snack (you might as well, if you've just waited at one of the food booths), which I'm not taking in line with me, but your mileage may vary.

 

[Clive]

Does it not negatively affect your likelihood of buying event merch if you're having such a miserable time that you have to visit the Tribute Store out of necessity? I don't know about you, but I'm more likely to buy something advertising the event if I'm actually enjoying myself and not thinking, "Can't do any houses. Lines are too long. How do I burn time?"

You probably won't get a drink before waiting in a 30+ minute line, because these days you have to wait in a 30+ minute line just to get the drink in many locations. Me personally, I like to enjoy my drink with a snack (you might as well, if you've just waited at one of the food booths), which I'm not taking in line with me, but your mileage may vary.

What are you talking about? I’ve never waited more than 10 minutes, max, for a beer at HHN in my life. Maybe 15 minutes for Finnegan’s at the peak of the night.

The reason you visit the tribute store is 1) it’s usually really well designed and an attraction unto itself and 2) you get to see all of the merch on offer, so you know what to look for later if you don’t buy right then.

I buy merchandise if it’s cool, the price is right, and I have fun at the event. That usually happens. I don’t know why you’re assuming you’re going to have a miserable time. If you don’t want to plan around lines or wait too long, buy single-night express as necessary.

Again: They’re calling your bluff.

 

[Jordan]

What are you talking about? I’ve never waited more than 10 minutes, max, for a beer at HHN in my life. Maybe 15 minutes for Finnegan’s at the peak of the night.

The reason you visit the tribute store is 1) it’s usually really well designed and an attraction unto itself and 2) you get to see all of the merch on offer, so you know what to look for later if you don’t buy right then.

I buy merchandise if it’s cool, the price is right, and I have fun at the event. That usually happens. I don’t know why you’re assuming you’re going to have a miserable time. If you don’t want to plan around lines or wait too long, buy single-night express as necessary.

Again: They’re calling your bluff.

Most guests are getting the specialty drinks from the main bar or the food booths, not getting beer at Finnegan's. That's why you're not waiting.

The Tribute Store was well designed. It's clearly tumbled down the list of priorities these days. Yes, I still take a look, but if I'm going in there because I have to and not because I want to, there's a problem. I'm assuming a miserable time because that's exactly what I have whenever the lines are long and I don't have Express -- a miserable time.

Trying to find ways to kill time, like looking at merchandise, is not "planning around lines." It's just killing time. There is literally no way to plan around long lines once everything has a long line, and I wish people would stop pretending this is a thing, like they have some secret strategy that negates the event's biggest flaw. When you ask them what their master plan is, it's usually some variation of, "I get a head start with Stay & Scream, then once the crowds come in I sit around doing nothing for most of the night, then I do some more houses at the very end of the night because it's dead." That's not a plan, that's masochism. Regardless, defaulting to reminding us that we can still spend an arm and a leg on single night Express won't actually solve our complaints or the event's flaws.

 

[queenmetroid]

I see a lot of unverified assumptions being made here. Like the one about Universal making less money from repeat visitors. Personally, I can already verify that Universal will make significantly less money from myself than they did last year, and I'm certain that I'm not the only one. Far from it. There's already been plenty of talk, in this thread alone, much less elsewhere, of people even cancelling portions of their trips or entire trips over this decision. I'm sure many of us will also buy less food & merch (how can we not, if we're busy waiting in line?), which isn't as insignificant as you assume. Alcohol sales used to be this event's life blood for god's sake. Individually we may all be a mere drop in the bucket, but you really think that doesn't add up overall?

It's also very disingenuous to claim we're not losing anything. Affordability is certainly a tangible something, and technically having the option to spend more than you can justify realistically isn't much of an option at all. That's simply not how finances work.


Still makes more sense than complaining about not possessing a premium ticket option that's "underpriced," no?

I'm sitting here waiting for a deployment to finish, and I've got some time, so I'll pick up the gauntlet. No assumptions were made in my post, so here's the math.



After just a single week of use (and this is the EASIEST pass to break even on because of the cheaper express nights), you already need to be spending a minimum of 100 per person, per night to make up for what Universal is "losing" (assuming express does not sell out). Plus, the "assuming 100% margin" is doing an insane amount of lifting. Obviously, you'd need to spend anywhere from 1.3 to 2.0 these numbers. And for the sake of argument, let's say you were spending that kind of money per night. I would contend the following:

• If you choose to reallocate any money to single night express, then you're purchasing a higher margin product anyway.
• In Universal's eyes, you're very likely to spend at least some money anyway on food, beverage, and merch anyway because you'll probably still need to eat at the event.

Plus, It's a pretty well documented fact that people use more of something when it's available, and everyone here is talking about expressmaxxing, so the usage of these passes is likely higher than average.

At the end of the day, I'm just some random dude on the internet running numbers, and I can come up with the basic math that shows that Universal doesn't need to do this anymore. And, if at some point they do, they will bring it back. Affordability is simply not a concern to Universal if they have the ability to replace you with someone else with higher margins (and right now, they do). At worst, this impacts, what, 3000 people, if not a single one comes back? Somehow, I really doubt that is the case. I suspect it will be more like this:



At the end of the day, I'll be waiting in the regular lines anyway, so...

 

[Jordan]

I'm sitting here waiting for a deployment to finish, and I've got some time, so I'll pick up the gauntlet. No assumptions were made in my post, so here's the math.

View attachment 30308

After just a single week of use (and this is the EASIEST pass to break even on because of the cheaper express nights), you already need to be spending a minimum of 100 per person, per night to make up for what Universal is "losing" (assuming express does not sell out). Plus, the "assuming 100% margin" is doing an insane amount of lifting. Obviously, you'd need to spend anywhere from 1.3 to 2.0 these numbers. And for the sake of argument, let's say you were spending that kind of money per night. I would contend the following:

• If you choose to reallocate any money to single night express, then you're purchasing a higher margin product anyway.
• In Universal's eyes, you're very likely to spend at least some money anyway on food, beverage, and merch anyway because you'll probably still need to eat at the event.

Plus, It's a pretty well documented fact that people use more of something when it's available, and everyone here is talking about expressmaxxing, so the usage of these passes is likely higher than average.

At the end of the day, I'm just some random dude on the internet running numbers, and I can come up with the basic math that shows that Universal doesn't need to do this anymore. And, if at some point they do, they will bring it back. Affordability is simply not a concern to Universal if they have the ability to replace you with someone else with higher margins (and right now, they do). At worst, this impacts, what, 3000 people, if not a single one comes back? Somehow, I really doubt that is the case. I suspect it will be more like this:

View attachment 30309

At the end of the day, I'll be waiting in the regular lines anyway, so...

How is Universal losing profit the more you use a multi-night ticket or Express? This requires the assumption that either A) everyone currently using these ticket options would be willing to buy alternative ticket options of equal value (nights offered) if discontinued, or B) someone else will swoop in to cover the "lost" profit. I disagree with both premises.

Who is Universal supposed to replace me with anyway? They're not selling one less single night Express because I'm in the park with an FFP. This isn't Disney, so I don't have to announce my arrival in advance. It should also go without saying that they'd gladly sell one to every guest in the park so long as they're willing to pay up. This is the real reason why there are still so many Express users, even after FFP w/ Express was sold in limited numbers, and is the actual problem many people imagined FFP w/ Express to be. It's like saying Universal will sell my ticket to someone else if I don't buy one, when in actuality they'll sell more than the park's capacity whether I'm there or not. They get away with these things because no one holds their feet to the fire where it matters.

So these ticket options are still pure profit, even at a discount. There's no actual need to break even on the discount.

 

[Lucky Planet]

The event just became too popular. With the event becoming crowded and difficult to game plan, guests started finding ways to tackle HHN beyond express. There was DAS abuse and more importantly the “hack” that was Stay & Scream and pre-gaming at Finnegan’s was no longer a secret. It got busier and busier, and once they started selling the Scream Early tickets, it made it completely useless the past 2 years.

Last year was the breaking point with FNAF reaching capacity before the event actually started and Terrifier having hefty wait times out in the September sun.

FF passes with express certainly didn’t break HHN alone, it seemingly was a victim of UOR’s recent initiative to improve the overall guest experience for everyone.

This was a necessary step, but I still believe there are ways to add capacity to the event without capping attendance ala Not so Scary. (Expanding S&S and F&F coaster next year will help tremendously.)

After reading all the pages of this debate, setting the communication issue aside, which is a genuine complaint, I think what troubles me most about this debate is the overall entitlement of people in this thread. People who want the option for express aren't losing anything at all. You can absolutely have express every night if you want, but you simply have to pay more for it, and that's really what most people are upset about. I would feel more sympathetic to the people complaining if it didn't boil down to, "I am upset that I can no longer experience this event the way I feel I should be able to at a cheaper price." Regardless of the reason whether it's affordability or unwillingness to pay, that is the core argument being made in totality. Even IU's article can be summarized as the same thing (Sorry, Bryan).

That also underscores the hypocrisy of the position. "It's too hard to see the event in a single night, and therefore I need express." That option is still available to you. The price of two nights of express plus a Rush of Fear is still equal to unlimited Rush of Fear, which is all you would need to see the event at a leisurely pace. People just can't skip the lines every night anymore, so they see that as reduced value to them, even if that's more than they really need. I don't consider this a "cheat code" because obviously one should extract maximum value from something, but you also aren't entitled to that thing indefinitely. For all the claims of loyalty (and I've been going to HHN on both coasts as long as anyone here), it's pretty well known that loyal theme park customers don't drive nearly as much revenue as people who come once; they tend to be less profitable, and that's been evident at Disneyland for years. Express is a pure profit driver, and food, beverage, and merch are not. Giving away express for less money has not been in Universal's interest for almost a decade at this point. Even with the absurd margins at HHN, you probably need to spend at least $400 on those things to equal a single Express pass, and I just strongly doubt anyone is spending $400 every night they go, and if you are, you're not the kind of person who's complaining about unlimited express being removed. This is doubly ironic as express unquestionably makes the event worse for everyone overall, and the most passionate and outspoken fans are likely the largest overusers because they are the ones who know about the passes and will wait in line for it.

This is in no way a defense of Universal constantly raising prices. I'm not defending a corporation for trying to maximize profit, but on the other hand, their hands are tied, and I'd be asking the same question of "Why should some people pay less for the same experience?" and I can't blame them for asking that. I personally have my doubts this will even make the lines better because if they were allegedly only selling a few thousand passes anyway, so it's likely pretty irrelevant at the end of the day.

It just staggers me that people are complaining about a premium product inside of a premium product. This is not oxygen; it is an entertainment product, and as such, you must accept the limitations being offered, and if you don't like it, vote with your wallet. Saying, "Universal doesn't want my money!" is simply not the threat that people think it is.

frequent fear is a privilege that other events or other parks don't always have. people forget how giving these tickets are. frequent fear passes are relatively cheap. it really was a "steal" specially if you visit every single night.
is a house too long? did a house flood? no worries just come back tomorrow,
wanna do the fuel show twice in a row? 3 times? no worries go ahead.
wanna visit the dragon house 7 times in a row with low lines? of course go ahead
( I did all these things )

if removing express helps single day visitors then that's for the best.

 

[Markus]

They’re calling your bluff. And even if 60% of the people threatening to cancel trips actually do, Universal is willing to bet they’ll make up that money in other ways (including single-use Express).

Unfortunately I'm one of those who have bought into that too. Spending £400/$500 more, whilst doing 1 night less in the process.

Just so happens that whilst it is my 4th visit to HHN, it is my partner's 1st, so we are doing everything on a bit of a premium scale to make their experience a one of a kind - Hard Rock Hotel (so free express), Epic with bought express, Disney with bought LL and the plan was ROF w/ express. I wanted to stick to the plan we had all along so we just had to adapt.

As many have said already, it wasn't the actual decision, but the timing and lack of formal communication has caused the late pivot so that $500 is now off our planned spending budget, rather than knowing a lot sooner and being able to plan for it. Less than 7 weeks before our trip means I can't really work out to get that extra back into the budget. I could have taken another night off HHN but I already lost 1, I didn't want to reduce from 4 nights to 2.

That's just my personal experience of it all, and a whole load of people will be adjusting too - many for worse off. It may very well be the right decision, just could and should have been handled considerably better.