Epic Universe - What's Not Working, How Do We Feel, & What Are Potential Solutions?

[maxairmike]

There’s another issue here which is that Universal seems to be very all-or-nothing in terms of headliners vs non-headliners. Epic absolutely needs better balance, but things like Yoshi and the Carousel are so limited in scope and appeal that they’re not going to redirect substantial crowds from the major attractions.

A genuine middle ground — non-headliner but still broadly appealing and exciting to say the teenager and family crowd — probably would have been something like an interactive shooter dark ride in Berk or some kind of equivalent in Celestial Park.

When was the last time Universal actually built something like that? Instead, they tend to go Hagrid or go Villain-Con. They need to get better at the middle ground, but given that going big is much more likely to move the needle on attendance for future additions, I think the only time Epic would have got a ride like that would have been at phase 1.

Can we talk about the insanely long queue they built for the carousel? Nothing about creating a line that long for what should be a B-ticket (C if we’re being really generous because of looks/uniqueness) says anything positive IMO. You either expected this ride to have way higher capacity than any realistic math would ever show, expected much higher attendance that you knew you needed to stuff people into a line even if it was going to be an hour plus for a carousel because of the lack of ride capacity and weather issues, or it’s just a straight up design/communication issue.

Also, some of those middle ground attractions that are missing need to be smaller footprints than something like MIB/ET. Exciting and well themed, high interest flats and smaller dark rides more similar in size to the Fantasyland classics than warehouse-sized ones. Two D/E-ticket attractions will certainly help better spread the current load and allow them to sell some more tickets that they just can’t currently, but it doesn’t fully solve the underlying issue. I say that as someone that is dying to get an AP option so I can chill and enjoy the evening vibes more than rides.

 

[DragonSlayer]

Also, some of those middle ground attractions that are missing need to be smaller footprints than something like MIB/ET. Exciting and well themed, high interest flats and smaller dark rides more similar in size to the Fantasyland classics than warehouse-sized ones. Two D/E-ticket attractions will certainly help better spread the current load and allow them to sell some more tickets that they just can’t currently, but it doesn’t fully solve the underlying issue. I say that as someone that is dying to get an AP option so I can chill and enjoy the evening vibes more than rides.

Yep. A motion platform dark ride (like the dynamic attractions model / Intamin’s new one for Dance Macabre at Efteling) themed like Space Fantasy and dropped into Celestial Park would have done wonders. A dark ride on the scale of Cat in the Hat in Berk likewise.

I think the park is boxed in by the IPs to be honest. You can’t build a mid-sized attraction for Nintendo or for Potter. Berk seems pretty flexible in terms of attraction types it could accommodate but it’s already very built out. Dark Universe pretty much only has one spot left, so they won’t want to waste it on something middling, I guess.

The CC queue thing is funny. I hadn’t noticed that, but you’re right.

 

[Legacy]

Yep. A motion platform dark ride (like the dynamic attractions model / Intamin’s new one for Dance Macabre at Efteling) themed like Space Fantasy and dropped into Celestial Park would have done wonders. A dark ride on the scale of Cat in the Hat in Berk likewise.

I think the park is boxed in by the IPs to be honest. You can’t build a mid-sized attraction for Nintendo or for Potter. Berk seems pretty flexible in terms of attraction types it could accommodate but it’s already very built out. Dark Universe pretty much only has one spot left, so they won’t want to waste it on something middling, I guess.

The CC queue thing is funny. I hadn’t noticed that, but you’re right.

I mean… Yoshi is a mid-sized attraction.

I made this point in the Studios version of this thread, but I think the actual constraint is a target audience that wants thrill-providing attractions. That’s what actually locks in the types of attractions they build: teen and adult looking for something “more thrilling than Disney.”

An indoor teacups or Danse Macabre could easily get plopped in Ministries. An omnimover exploring the history of Darkmoor (and thus introducing younger kids to the monsters in a non-threatening way) could be a lot of fun. The original Nintendo concept included a Kirby spinner. Shoot, Nintendo had Universal slow down Mario Kart so more people could ride it. Universal limits itself.

 

[RGMick77]

The original Nintendo concept included a Kirby spinner. Shoot, Nintendo had Universal slow down Mario Kart so more people could ride it. Universal limits itself.

Speaking of limiting themselves, they also slowed down the carousel from its factory setting and added annoying seatbelts that make the loading process take longer.

 

[Parkscope Joe]

I mean… Yoshi is a mid-sized attraction.

I made this point in the Studios version of this thread, but I think the actual constraint is a target audience that wants thrill-providing attractions. That’s what actually locks in the types of attractions they build: teen and adult looking for something “more thrilling than Disney.”

An indoor teacups or Danse Macabre could easily get plopped in Ministries. An omnimover exploring the history of Darkmoor (and thus introducing younger kids to the monsters in a non-threatening way) could be a lot of fun. The original Nintendo concept included a Kirby spinner. Shoot, Nintendo had Universal slow down Mario Kart so more people could ride it. Universal limits itself.

I keep saying it but people want universal to build Disney rides when that’s not what their market wants.

 

[SkiBum]

I keep saying it but people want universal to build Disney rides when that’s not what their market wants.

I agree to an extent. Universal has done a great job of filling the market for teenagers and adults where Disney focused on a younger set (though some of the newer rides are finally starting to appeal to a broader age range). However, if Universal wants to grow effectively, they cannot solely focus on older riders. Plus, some slower rides (e.g., boat rides where you don't get soaked) could be built that are still creepy or exciting enough to appeal to all ages but able to be ridden by younger children. A Danse Macabre ride or a flying theater could be an excellent addition to begin filling in some of the ride spectrum.

 

[belloq87]

I keep saying it but people want universal to build Disney rides when that’s not what their market wants.

I think this is an oversimplification.

If Universal ever built something like Kongfrontation, Jaws, or Earthquake/Disaster again, I think any of us asking for (non-screen-reliant) dark rides would be beyond thrilled. But since it seems highly unlikely they would build rides on that massive practical scale again, the more feasible/reasonable ask is for something like SLOP, which they very recently demonstrated they are willing to build.

I'd also push back on the idea that their "market" (whoever that is; I've been going to Universal regularly since 1993, but presumably it doesn't include me) would prefer something like VillainCon to something like SLOP. And if all they cared about was serving this "market" exclusively, they wouldn't have built the park in Texas.

 

[Parkscope Joe]

I agree to an extent. Universal has done a great job of filling the market for teenagers and adults where Disney focused on a younger set (though some of the newer rides are finally starting to appeal to a broader age range). However, if Universal wants to grow effectively, they cannot solely focus on older riders. Plus, some slower rides (e.g., boat rides where you don't get soaked) could be built that are still creepy or exciting enough to appeal to all ages but able to be ridden by younger children. A Danse Macabre ride or a flying theater could be an excellent addition to begin filling in some of the ride spectrum.

And they do. But the fact is people keep moving goal posts. “Too many screens. Lap bars. No AAs.” Etc.

 

[Cwoolboy]

I really do think that Universal in the modern day is curb-stomping Disney. Current parks leadership at the mouse has been an absolute joke. They care only about their investors/stock holders and care nought for the average guest or long-time fan. Universal actually makes an attempt to listen to their fans and care about the guest experience. Much better than Disney's current approach, which consists of" You'll eat what we give you, and you'll like it!"

 

[themeparkpalooza]

Celestial Park
-add some steampunk-aesthetic flat rides
-add a Captain Cacao dark ride

Berk
-add a Fantasyland style dark ride or a flying theater to give the land an indoor ride to do

Super Nintendo World
-add a Diddy/Dixie Kong flat ride to DK Country
-maybe add a Danse Macabre-type attraction for Luigi's Mansion

Darkmoor
-Creatures boat ride

HP
-indoor broomstick steeplechase coaster

Possible new lands
-Hyrule
-Oz
-Animal Crossing/Kirby/Splatoon/Pikmin area like Fantasy Springs
-Star Fox/F-Zero/Metroid area like a true sci-fi area
-Hill Valley
-Amity
-Shrek

One off ride miniland like Kong
-POTC style ride for The Odyssey

 

[Parkscope Joe]

If Universal ever built something like Kongfrontation, Jaws, or Earthquake/Disaster again, I think any of us asking for (non-screen-reliant) dark rides would be beyond thrilled. But since it seems highly unlikely they would build rides on that massive practical scale again, the more feasible/reasonable ask is for something like SLOP, which they very recently demonstrated they are willing to build.

I think it's mostly due to folks wanting it to be 1993 again, not that they want those rides back per say.

I really do think that Universal in the modern day is curb-stomping Disney. Current parks leadership at the mouse has been an absolute joke. They care only about their investors/stock holders and care nought for the average guest or long-time fan. Universal actually makes an attempt to listen to their fans and care about the guest experience. Much better than Disney's current approach, which consists of" You'll eat what we give you, and you'll like it!"

I think there's great attractions, shows, and entertianment coming out of both! I just know when I go to Disney I'm exepecting Disney rides with the WDI taste and Disney's goals and when I go to Universal I know it's rides with UC's taste and Uni's goals.

 

[rabbitsmoon]

Devil's advocate, MD, is it that interesting tho? Gen pop doesn't know about the lack of shade and rain-proof rides (well, I'm sure some soccer parent scuttlebutt up north at this point, but not in the level superfans on here do). Yet even with the most recognizable character on the planet in Mario, the crowds never materialized. Partially that has to be marketing, partially that's APs being allergic to paying full price once they're no longer "first." But I also have to think that's partially the IPs not being the broad draw they need to be. Yeah, it's the best QSR pizza I've ever had, in a delightful setting to boot, but that doesn't get Joe from Jersey to book a vacation there the way a new Guardians of the Galaxy ride would.

Short of buying Disney's library, I don't know what better IPs they could've used. There's no metric by which Guardians is a bigger property than Mario. I think the secret to Cosmic Rewind's success has more to do with execution (super fun, novel ride system that captures the essential appeal of the property: space adventure + music), and how well it fit a need at Epcot.

But then that's an interesting question: has Nintendo underperformed as a theme park property, and if so, why? It's done quite well at USJ, helping maintain their spot as the 3rd-most-visited park in the world. Maybe the design skews more toward the Japanese sensibility, or maybe people just weren't as excited for the 3rd Mario land in the world.

Also, attendance is just one metric, and I have to imagine Universal's quite happy with the money they're making off power-up bands, other merch, and food.

 

[Parkscope Joe]

Also, attendance is just one metric, and I have to imagine Universal's quite happy with the money they're making off power-up bands, other merch, and food.

Yeah, I can easily make attendance super high with this one trick (paying people to come).

 

[pumpkinbot343]

Certain talks here remind me about a video on WDW and one of its points about capacity.



In particular this comment stands out to me, since it could apply to every other theme park:

“I'll scream it from the rooftops: THEME PARKS NEED "BORING" AND "SLOW" RIDES AND ACTIVITIES FOR THEIR OWN HEALTH! If everything is an E-ticket, it's nothing but endless lines and frustration! You need those small, reliable dopamine hits that guests can get done easily to keep them happy! The Liberty Belle closing was a huge tragedy in this aspect, because she was aesthetically pleasing to look at and also a great place to sit down and have a snack while still technically doing something. The loss of entertainment, of activities, of lands designed with small details to keep you fascinated is what will kill these parks.”

 

[SeventyOne]

Short of buying Disney's library, I don't know what better IPs they could've used. There's no metric by which Guardians is a bigger property than Mario. I think the secret to Cosmic Rewind's success has more to do with execution (super fun, novel ride system that captures the essential appeal of the property: space adventure + music), and how well it fit a need at Epcot.

But then that's an interesting question: has Nintendo underperformed as a theme park property, and if so, why? It's done quite well at USJ, helping maintain their spot as the 3rd-most-visited park in the world. Maybe the design skews more toward the Japanese sensibility, or maybe people just weren't as excited for the 3rd Mario land in the world.

I admitted Nintendo is huge. Why I find this so odd. Maybe the truth of it is "EPCOT" is the bigger IP in terms of theme parks. Or maybe Nintendo fans just aren't theme park people. I don't know that the pre-existing Japanese land less than 0.1% of this country has visited enters the discussion, and bi-coastal Potter lands were both successful (and ours has more). So the evidence is clear it's not the draw we all thought it was.

I'd add not even the die-hard Potterheads care about 1920s Wizarding Paris, and the HtTYD fandom is deep but not wide, as borne out by box office receipts. Not a slam against either land--Berk may be my favorite land in Orlando--but wowing people who come inside and getting them in the door are two different things. Neither IP seems to be doing a lot to help Nintendo.

Also, attendance is just one metric, and I have to imagine Universal's quite happy with the money they're making off power-up bands, other merch, and food.

But come on, this is goalpost moving in a thread titled "What's not working?" Attendance is abysmal. That's what's not working.

 

[Mad Dog]

Certain talks here remind me about a video on WDW and one of its points about capacity.



In particular this comment stands out to me, since it could apply to every other theme park:

“I'll scream it from the rooftops: THEME PARKS NEED "BORING" AND "SLOW" RIDES AND ACTIVITIES FOR THEIR OWN HEALTH! If everything is an E-ticket, it's nothing but endless lines and frustration! You need those small, reliable dopamine hits that guests can get done easily to keep them happy! The Liberty Belle closing was a huge tragedy in this aspect, because she was aesthetically pleasing to look at and also a great place to sit down and have a snack while still technically doing something. The loss of entertainment, of activities, of lands designed with small details to keep you fascinated is what will kill these parks.”

Very accurate video.

 

[MAC]

But come on, this is goalpost moving in a thread titled "What's not working?" Attendance is abysmal. That's what's not working.

Attendance is an outcome of 'what's not working', not the very thing that's not working.

 

[Mad Dog]

I admitted Nintendo is huge. Why I find this so odd. Maybe the truth of it is "EPCOT" is the bigger IP in terms of theme parks. Or maybe Nintendo fans just aren't theme park people. I don't know that the pre-existing Japanese land less than 0.1% of this country has visited enters the discussion, and bi-coastal Potter lands were both successful (and ours has more). So the evidence is clear it's not the draw we all thought it was.

I'd add not even the die-hard Potterheads care about 1920s Wizarding Paris, and the HtTYD fandom is deep but not wide, as borne out by box office receipts. Not a slam against either land--Berk may be my favorite land in Orlando--but wowing people who come inside and getting them in the door are two different things. Neither IP seems to be doing a lot to help Nintendo.


But come on, this is goalpost moving in a thread titled "What's not working?" Attendance is abysmal. That's what's not working.

Just anecdotal, and I mentioned it on another thread, but it was eye opening to me. We took our 12 and 13 year old granddaughters to Universal in June. Both liked Universal more than Disney (we took them to WDW 2 years earlier), but they liked Disney also. They are both big time Nintendo fans. They did not like Maio Kart, found it too confusing even though they're gamers, and they thought Yoshii was boring. Walking through Nintendo land, they paid very little attention to the sights and atmosphere. I had to talk them into a second ride on Mario later in the day, and they still didn't like it. All three rides were walkons, so there was no line fatigue involved. This surprised the heck out of me.

 

[Clive]

I'm confused about why we're saying Nintendo isn't a draw/success. It absolutely is; they sell boatloads of merchandise and are probably close to breaking even on their Nintendo investments through those sales alone, if the figures I've heard thrown around are even close to accurate.

As @Mad Dog suggested, I could see that the word of mouth is perhaps suppressing enthusiasm/repeat visits, however. Reactions to Mario Kart are decidedly mixed, Yoshi doesn't quite satisfy, and Donkey Kong is burdened with punishing waits and downtime for a relatively brief (if novel) coaster. The games are fun, but the crowds are not. The visuals are gorgeous, if the animation works, but the land is still kind of a pain to navigate.

 

[MAC]

I'm confused about why we're saying Nintendo isn't a draw/success. It absolutely is; they sell boatloads of merchandise and are probably close to breaking even on their Nintendo investments through those sales alone, if the figures I've heard thrown around are even close to accurate.

As @Mad Dog suggested, I could see that the word of mouth is perhaps suppressing enthusiasm/repeat visits, however. Reactions to Mario Kart are decidedly mixed, Yoshi doesn't quite satisfy, and Donkey Kong is burdened with punishing waits and downtime for a relatively brief (if novel) coaster. The games are fun, but the crowds are not. The visuals are gorgeous, if the animation works, but the land is still kind of a pain to navigate.

I wonder how much emphasis UO puts on attendance instead of RPG. Obviously, more people could lead to more revenue, but I wonder if the RPG is in the range they’re looking for.