California Theme Parks & Shopping Districts Reopening General Thread

[Allison]

I want the parks to be successful, yes

And in order for them to be successful, for you that means they need to be open so you can go have fun. Nothing wrong with just admitting it.

Unless you’re just trying to crack jokes again, in which case I’m clearly missing it, but that’s cool too.

 

[RevFreako]

And in order for them to be successful, for you that means they need to be open so you can go have fun. Nothing wrong with just admitting it.

Except to admit it, they'd have to put down the faux concern and moralizing. I would have marginally more respect for the "open it up" crowd if they were honest about their reason.

 

[DeadSexeh]

Not sure it's in this thread but I've seen it other places online. People need to save their crocodile tears over wanting the parks to open for "jobs and employees". Why we as a society have allowed jobs to define someone's worth is beyond me. What worth is a job that puts you at an elevated risk of catching such a disease as COVID. "BuT tHeY aRe ExPoSeD tO tHe FlU" says the person who has never met a strawman.

From what I've seen, the people wanting parks to open back up for the jobs or as a way to help the Disney castmember (or whatever park and their employees) have remained remarkably quiet or vocally against other things that could help the unemployed: access to affordable housing, healthcare, food, security, education, etc. These items provide a heck of a whole lot more worth than a job.

I am just bothered by people wanting parks to open that won't admit they want it open for themselves and use the guise that it is for the employees. Like just be honest.

And of course you can want both things, yes. But let's not pretend that's what's going on here.

Yep, that was said much better than I did when eerily similar issues about the houses reopening were running rampant in the HHN thread.

The faux concern is getting tired, just admit you wanna be able to go to the parks again and that’s it.

I am impressed with how many people don't understand different view points. I have never been and will likely won't visit Disneyland for years but I want them to open. It is not for me to go and enjoy, it is because I have and always will be someone who wants people to have the choice. If people want to work, I want them to have the option to do so. This is a complete strawman, you disregard a huge part of the viewpoint to make it easier to bash. People need a purpose in life and a job often provides that. Everyone can have their own views and there is neither side that is 100% or 100% wrong. Some people see opening parks as too risky I get it, but don't agree. That is ok, but I don't go around changing their argument to "I don't want things to open because I can't go enjoy those activities and might miss something and it is not because of health concerns."

 

[RevFreako]

I am impressed with how many people don't understand different view points. I have never been and will likely won't visit Disneyland for years but I want them to open. It is not for me to go and enjoy, it is because I have and always will be someone who wants people to have the choice. If people want to work, I want them to have the option to do so. This is a complete strawman, you disregard a huge part of the viewpoint to make it easier to bash. People need a purpose in life and a job often provides that. Everyone can have their own views and there is neither side that is 100% or 100% wrong. Some people see opening parks as too risky I get it, but don't agree. That is ok, but I don't go around changing their argument to "I don't want things to open because I can't go enjoy those activities and might miss something and it is not because of health concerns."

This isn't a strawman. A strawman constructs a weaker argument in order to more easily refute it. A large part of the "open it up" crowd just wants to go to the parks, and that's who we're talking about. Another part of the crowd is pretending that reasons like yours are why they want the doors open, and we're talking about them too. Both of these groups factually exist. If you are not part of one of those groups, we're not talking about you, but when you complain despite not being part of the group talked about, you're sliding onto "the lady doth protest too much" territory. This isn't hard to grasp.

As an aside, I know you mean well, but this is the second logical fallacy that has been misused in these discussions. Advice is worth what you paid for it always, but I think everyone would serve themselves well with a refresher on the classic fallacies, what they mean and how amd when they're used.

 

[Allison]

I am impressed with how many people don't understand different view points. I have never been and will likely won't visit Disneyland for years but I want them to open. It is not for me to go and enjoy, it is because I have and always will be someone who wants people to have the choice. If people want to work, I want them to have the option to do so. This is a complete strawman, you disregard a huge part of the viewpoint to make it easier to bash. People need a purpose in life and a job often provides that. Everyone can have their own views and there is neither side that is 100% or 100% wrong. Some people see opening parks as too risky I get it, but don't agree. That is ok, but I don't go around changing their argument to "I don't want things to open because I can't go enjoy those activities and might miss something and it is not because of health concerns."

I never said you or anyone else can’t have your particular opinion, you can have any opinion you want if it helps you sleep at night. Facts are facts, and there are real people that have actually protested outside of Disneyland to open up the gates so they can have their play time. That bothers me, and it’s allowed to bother me just like it’s allowed to not bother you. Nothing wrong with that.

However, when it comes to CM’s & TM’s scraping by, barely making a livable wage as if that job should be their “purpose in life”? You lose me there.

 

[DeadSexeh]

This isn't a strawman. A strawman constructs a weaker, easier to refute argument in order to more easily refute it. A large part of the "open it up" crowd just wants to go to the parks, and that's who we're talking about. Another part of the crowd is pretending that reasons like yours are why they want the doors open, and we're talking about them too. Both of these groups factually exist. If you are not part of one of those groups, we're not talking about you, but when you complain despite not being part of the group talked about, you're sliding onto "the lady doth protest too much" territory. This isn't hard to grasp.

As an aside, I know you mean well, but this is the second logical fallacy that has been misused in these discussions. Advice is worth what you paid for it always, but I think everyone would serve themselves well with a refresher on the classic fallacies, what they mean and how amd when they're used.

Straw Man: This move oversimplifies an opponent's viewpoint and then attacks that hollow argument.
Source
You are taking the argument of open parks because people need to work, people need leisure activities and because said person wants to go and changing the argument to solely they want it open because they want to go. This is the group I am in. I am for opening parks up but, you have labeled the everyone as they want things to open so they can selfishly enjoy them and for no other reason. What evidence is there that the majority of the open crowd just wants it open so they can go?

 

[RevFreako]

Straw Man: This move oversimplifies an opponent's viewpoint and then attacks that hollow argument.
Source
You are taking the argument of open parks because people need to work, people need leisure activities and because said person wants to go and changing the argument to solely they want it open because they want to go. This is the group I am in. I am for opening parks up but, you have labeled the everyone as they want things to open so they can selfishly enjoy them and for no other reason. What evidence is there that the majority of the open crowd just wants it open so they can go?

POINT OUT WHERE I SAID MAJORITY. Do that, and I will donate one hundred dollars to the charity of your choice. I never said "majority," and I never said "everyone." I explicitly defined two portions of the group who want the parks throw open. By your own admission, you are part of NEITHER portion. I am therefore NOT talking about you. I never once referenced the argument that the parks should be open because people want to work. Please immediately retract this false statement.

If your reason for opening is not because you want to go to the park, then I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU. I'm starting to believe you're dishonestly misunderstanding purposely.

Since you like definitions so much:

"Straw Man: This move oversimplifies an opponent's viewpoint and then attacks that hollow argument."

Your viewpoint, oversimplified or not, was not discussed. Definitionally not a strawman.

 

[DeadSexeh]

POINT OUT WHERE I SAID MAJORITY. Do that, and I will donate one hundred dollars to the charity of your choice. I never said "majority," and I never said "everyone." I explicitly defined two portions of the group who want the parks throw open. By your own admission, you are part of NEITHER portion. I am therefore NOT talking about you. I never once referenced the argument that the parks should be open because people want to work. Please immediately retract this false statement.

If your reason for opening is not because you want to go to the park, then I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU. I'm starting to believe you're dishonestly misunderstanding purposely.

A large part of the "open it up" crowd just wants to go to the parks, and that's who we're talking about. Another part of the crowd is pretending that reasons like yours are why they want the doors open, and we're talking about them too.

large part is synonym for majority

Give me some time to find the charity I so desire.

Also can we keep this a civil discussion, all caps come off as very hostile.

 

[RevFreako]

large part is synonym for majority

Give me some time to find the charity I so desire.

Also can we keep this a civil discussion, all caps come off as very hostile.

A plurality is also a large part. Not a majority. I choose my words very carefully.

I use caps because with my arthritic condition, it is easier on me than bold face. No hostility is intended, but unless the mods rule that caps are not an acceptable substitute, I will continue to use them. Additionally, eyeballing my post, about twelve of my words were all caps. Clearly emphasis rather than hostility.

Adding, just to be petty, "large part" does not appear in the list of synonyms you linked. "Best part" does, which i would have used had I meant majority.

 

[vgp]

Except to admit it, they'd have to put down the faux concern and moralizing. I would have marginally more respect for the "open it up" crowd if they were honest about their reason.

A counterpoint, if you will allow a couple of quick anecdotal experiences. While at one of the area theme parks a few weeks ago, I noticed there was a "differently abled" employee cleaning tables. Every time a group would get up from their table, her eyes would light up and she would excitedly say goodbye and wave and smile to the departing party before cleaning their table. It was clear that this gave her great joy.

While on a DCL cruise a year or so ago, there was a girl who wore with great pride a shirt that listed all of the cruises she had been on; I saw her in line for almost every single character meet-and-greet, and occasionally she would bring a sign which documented a certain number of months since her last severe health issue. It was not what you or I would consider a long time since that most recent health issue. Despite that, there was a sense of happiness and contentment in her aura, as if this was a needed escape from some of the bleaker realities.

In both of those cases, the parks and cruise give them something tangible, something real, an opportunity to just be happy and perhaps escape some of the bleaker realities they face, and then you wonder what happens to that when they instead spend a year or more without that. I think that's true to some extent for all of us, and why humans treasure their vacations so much. A study came out showing that 1 in 4 Americans now suffer from "mild" depression, and the amount suffering from "severe" depression has risen by 7x, post-COVID. None of this is to try to compare it to people dying or becoming seriously sick, or even to say "parks open now!", just that there's a little more depth to it than whether people get to ride Splash Mountain or not.

 

[RevFreako]

A counterpoint, if you will allow a couple of quick anecdotal experiences. While at one of the area theme parks a few weeks ago, I noticed there was a "differently abled" employee cleaning tables. Every time a group would get up from their table, her eyes would light up and she would excitedly say goodbye and wave and smile to the departing party before cleaning their table. It was clear that this gave her great joy.

While on a DCL cruise a year or so ago, there was a girl who wore with great pride a shirt that listed all of the cruises she had been on; I saw her in line for almost every single character meet-and-greet, and occasionally she would bring a sign which documented a certain number of months since her last severe health issue. It was not what you or I would consider a long time since that most recent health issue. Despite that, there was a sense of happiness and contentment in her aura, as if this was a needed escape from some of the bleaker realities.

In both of those cases, the parks and cruise give them something tangible, something real, an opportunity to just be happy and perhaps escape some of the bleaker realities they face, and then you wonder what happens to that when they instead spend a year or more without that. I think that's true to some extent for all of us, and why humans treasure their vacations so much. A study came out showing that 1 in 4 Americans now suffer from "mild" depression, and the amount suffering from "severe" depression has risen by 7x, post-COVID. None of this is to try to compare it to people dying or becoming seriously sick, or even to say "parks open now!", just that there's a little more depth to it than whether people get to ride Splash Mountain or not.

I was a Special Olympics coach as a teenager and young adult, so I'm well familiar with what you're talking about, and I agree that it's more nuanced than Splash Mountain, but I also know from my experience that there is a lot of what I call "Crocodile concern" on the topic. Understand I'm not calling you out here, just sharing a counter-counter POV.

 

[DeadSexeh]

However, when it comes to CM’s & TM’s scraping by, barely making a livable wage as if that job should be their “purpose in life”? You lose me there.

What the job is doesn't always change the fact that it provides some people with a purpose. It is having something that gives people a reason to get up and lets them get the self gratification of knowing they provided something to the larger community.

A plurality is also a large part. Not a majority. I choose my words very carefully.

I use caps because with my arthritic condition, it is easier on me than bold face. No hostility is intended, but unless the mods rule that caps are not an acceptable substitute, I will continue to use them. Additionally, eyeballing my post, about twelve of my words were all caps. Clearly emphasis rather than hostility.

Adding, just to be petty, "large part" does not appear in the list of synonyms you linked. "Best part" does, which i would have used had I meant majority.

Large portion is representative of the group size. 3 of 5 people think "blank" then that is a large portion but if 3 of 10 people think "blank" then it is no longer a large portion.

When it comes to text all caps gives off yelling and hostility, I get it, it is easier than bolding on mobile devices so it makes sense now. The all caps probably does end up getting some of your posts taken more negatively than they should.

I am just going to let debate of why people want things to open go, but I was just trying to point out that the viewpoint of opening up is being greatly misrepresented.

 

[RevFreako]

What the job is doesn't always change the fact that it provides some people with a purpose. It is having something that gives people a reason to get up and lets them get the self gratification of knowing they provided something to the larger community.




Large portion is representative of the group size. 3 of 5 people think "blank" then that is a large portion but if 3 of 10 people think "blank" then it is no longer a large portion.

When it comes to text all caps gives off yelling and hostility, I get it, it is easier than bolding on mobile devices so it makes sense now. The all caps probably does end up getting some of your posts taken more negatively than they should.

I am just going to let debate of why people want things to open go, but I was just trying to point out that the viewpoint of opening up is being greatly misrepresented.

If eight of you are deciding where to eat and three of you want to go for pizza, that's a large part, not a majority. It may be splitting hairs conceptually, but not definitionally. The right word was used.

As I'm not overly concerned about how anyone but the mods see my posts re positivity vs negativity, it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make for my hands.

I'm also willing to let this part of the debate go, as I believe I've shown that nothing was misrepresented. Be well.

 

[Allison]

What the job is doesn't always change the fact that it provides some people with a purpose. It is having something that gives people a reason to get up and lets them get the self gratification of knowing they provided something to the larger community.

I didn’t say all the CM’s & TM’s. Also, not talking about the CM’s/TM’s with different abilities. If you love your job and it gives you something to do and look forward to then that’s great. If you’re not working right now and feeling stuck in this current climate there are volunteer opportunities available that could be equally, if not more, fulfilling.

My argument is simply pro self awareness for the theme park crowd, that’s it.

 

[Jerroddragon]

Wait the people who think CM's can't make enough to live....how have they been living?

I for sure want many CM's to get paid more dealing with the public should bump you at least 2-3 bucks an hour in my books but while some people do really struggle most CM's do live off of what they make and or are very much there because they love the job.
So I don't know why we are trying to belittle that.

As for the "you only want them open to go" I'd go to Universal and maybe Six Flags but not sure about Disneyland because honestly I'd want an AP and those will not be sold for quiet some time. But you can want to go to the parks and also worry about the CMs/Disney/construction workers/and small businesses these are not a pick and choice one you can have sympathy for the people being harmed and still want to go into the parks.

 

[Allison]

Wait the people who think CM's can't make enough to live....how have they been living?

I for sure want many CM's to get paid more dealing with the public should bump you at least 2-3 bucks an hour in my books but while some people do really struggle most CM's do live off of what they make and or are very much there because they love the job.
So I don't know why we are trying to belittle that.

As for the "you only want them open to go" I'd go to Universal and maybe Six Flags but not sure about Disneyland because honestly I'd want an AP and those will not be sold for quiet some time. But you can want to go to the parks and also worry about the CMs/Disney/construction workers/and small businesses these are not a pick and choice one you can have sympathy for the people being harmed and still want to go into the parks.

Jerrod...please do some research into the lives of CM’s, TM’s, and generally people living off of minimum wage, before you say anything like that again, because if you have to ask how they’re living-and if you think an extra $2 or $3 bucks an hour is enough-you don’t know what you’re talking about.

I don’t wanna go into a back and forth with you cause we don’t see eye to eye and that’s fine, but you’ve gotta start checking your privilege with your posts on these issues.

 

[Jerroddragon]

Jerrod...please do some research into the lives of CM’s, TM’s, and generally people living off of minimum wage, before you say anything like that again, because if you have to ask how they’re living-and if you think an extra $2 or $3 bucks an hour is enough-you don’t know what you’re talking about.

I don’t wanna go into a back and forth with you cause we don’t see eye to eye and that’s fine, but you’ve gotta start checking your privilege with your posts on these issues.

Yes because making nothing is more than minimum wage. Also as someone making the same as them literally a yeah ago, my privilege is at the door

 

[Allison]

Yes because making nothing is more than minimum wage. Also as someone making the same as them literally a yeah ago, my privilege is at the door

Yeah...this will go nowhere productive with you so I’m gonna bow out.

But if your “privilege is at the door” as you so claim, then it’s time for you to learn to do a better job of showing it.

 

[Viator]

As it's being seemingly indicated by SF's interest...Allow me to bring up something.

Would Gavin Newsom change his stance--if they can agree on having *every* park have rapid testing procedures before guests enter the property? For both staff and guests? With Corporations going into this, having rapid testing to ensure safety of the customer (such as on airplanes when you look to Hawaii), perhaps an controlled environment like a theme park, may be a way for them to control the amount with keeping to his beliefs. A compromise, in a sense. It would allow CM's and staff members to have a safety net in a sense, alongside the guests.

 

[Cup_Of_Coffee]

Wait the people who think CM's can't make enough to live....how have they been living?

I for sure want many CM's to get paid more dealing with the public should bump you at least 2-3 bucks an hour in my books but while some people do really struggle most CM's do live off of what they make and or are very much there because they love the job.
So I don't know why we are trying to belittle that.

As for the "you only want them open to go" I'd go to Universal and maybe Six Flags but not sure about Disneyland because honestly I'd want an AP and those will not be sold for quiet some time. But you can want to go to the parks and also worry about the CMs/Disney/construction workers/and small businesses these are not a pick and choice one you can have sympathy for the people being harmed and still want to go into the parks.

I..... really just think you want the parks open dude. Im not trying to demean your argument or sympathy, but most Americans (statically proven) can barely, or simply cannot live, off of the wages these cast members make. This is not their only job, it may be, but for many it isn't as I know Orlando workers who have multiple jobs.

These are not high paying positions, doesn't demean the job or their enjoyment (I love interacting w/CM-TM), but I feel you're making broad strokes only to support your argument about going to the parks, and thats where this whole discussion began about "People only want parks open for themselves", when you literally are discussing the value of an AP in your post above, not supporting Disney, which you want us all to do to "support the cast members", the arguments just are not lining up on your end so Imo, this is why people are acting like there is a side to choose or that you are not actually being empathetic. I feel you are trying to be empathetic but you mainly discuss business practices and business potential, which is all for a major corporation. if you haven't noticed, the Disney CEO"s are getting their full pay, whats your thoughts on that? That money could go to CM.