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Tomorrowland re-do?

  • Thread starter Thread starter HomerFan
  • Start date Start date Apr 25, 2013
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Parkscope Joe

Parkscope Joe

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  • Yesterday at 5:33 PM
  • #541
Alicia said:
In 60 years when they update it again they can do 100 year jumps between scenes to tell technology story for all of the USA’s history (with final scene set in future)
Click to expand...

Alicia I’ll be 99 :lmao:
 
Brian G.

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  • Yesterday at 5:37 PM
  • #542
mainejeff said:
What's "always" something?
Click to expand...

Pick anything. Any announcement. No matter what gets announced, there's always a group convinced it's the wrong decision. That's not to say criticism isn't valid, but sometimes it seems like people have made up their minds before anything is actually built, finished, or experienced.

If every announcement is a problem, every change is a mistake, and every decision is the wrong one, yet you keep coming back and spending money, it may be worth asking whether the park is really the issue.
 
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Alicia

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  • Yesterday at 5:37 PM
  • #543
Parkscope Joe said:
Alicia I’ll be 99 :lmao:
Click to expand...
I’ll be 104.

And living in spaaaace
 
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mainejeff

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  • Yesterday at 5:46 PM
  • #544
Brian G. said:
Pick anything. Any announcement. No matter what gets announced, there's always a group convinced it's the wrong decision. That's not to say criticism isn't valid, but sometimes it seems like people have made up their minds before anything is actually built, finished, or experienced.

If every announcement is a problem, every change is a mistake, and every decision is the wrong one, yet you keep coming back and spending money, it may be worth asking whether the park is really the issue.
Click to expand...
They can update Buzz Lightyear Space Ranger Spin as many times as they like.
 
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belloq87

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  • Yesterday at 5:57 PM
  • #545
I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing apprehension about a personal favorite attraction going away in favor of an unknown quantity, nor is that unease tantamount to complete condemnation, or decrying the change, in whole, as a mistake before it's open.

I hope the team does a great job. The media that apparently got to see an exclusive presentation with Imagineers and execs seem to have come away pretty convinced they will. We have recent (last ten yearsish) examples of updates that have been good and bad.
 
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Brian G.

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  • Yesterday at 6:00 PM
  • #546
belloq87 said:
I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing apprehension about a personal favorite attraction going away in favor of an unknown quantity, nor is that unease tantamount to complete condemnation, or decrying the change, in whole, as a mistake before it's open.
Click to expand...

Except when it ALWAYS happens. :lol:
 
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UNIrd

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  • Yesterday at 7:54 PM
  • #547
I just love that so many attractions are getting some much needed love. KEEP GOING. Especially in Tomorrowland.

Hopefully we see updates to Space Mountain, Laugh Floor, Stitch's Great Nothing, and even People Mover in due time.
 
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Jake S

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  • Yesterday at 8:05 PM
  • #548
Brian G. said:
Pick anything. Any announcement. No matter what gets announced, there's always a group convinced it's the wrong decision.
Click to expand...
I mean, yeah! Different people have different opinions on different things. This place would be hella boring if everything got the heart reaction as soon as it was announced.
 
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Brian G.

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  • Yesterday at 8:49 PM
  • #549
Jake S said:
I mean, yeah! Different people have different opinions on different things. This place would be hella boring if everything got the heart reaction as soon as it was announced.
Click to expand...

I want to apologize if my comments came across as dismissive of differing opinions.

My point isn't that people should automatically love everything that's announced. It's that some people seem to have the same negative reaction to virtually every change, addition, or announcement, regardless of what it is.

It's like a restaurant... If I keep going to the same place and consistently don't like the food, is the restaurant the problem, or should I reassess my options?

That doesn't make the criticism wrong. Not every Disney or Universal decision is good. Some changes will work, and some won't. In this instance, I disagree that Disney's chosen game plan here is somehow an issue.

They're working with a theater that has four scenes. They can't cover every era of the American family dynamic. Personally, I think even if the years were different, we'd still be having many of the same arguments because the pushback is often about the change itself. If they picked 1940, people would ask why they skipped 1920.

What I find interesting is that a lot of the discussion centers around preserving Disney's legacy by holding onto at least something of the old version, while the person whose legacy they're trying to preserve was famously against that kind of thinking. It's a contradiction, even if, emotionally, we understand the want to hold onto what we grew up with.

This thing may be good, or it may bigly suck. I don't know yet. I'd just love to see more people start from, "Let's see how this turns out," instead of immediately searching for reasons it won't.

And if the direction a company is taking consistently no longer appeals to someone, that's okay too. Sometimes the answer isn't that the company is wrong. Sometimes it's simply, "Maybe this isn't for me anymore."
 
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belloq87

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  • Yesterday at 10:03 PM
  • #550
Brian G. said:
My point isn't that people should automatically love everything that's announced. It's that some people seem to have the same negative reaction to virtually every change, addition, or announcement, regardless of what it is.
Click to expand...
I can't tell you that your perception of how people (and I, because I tend to freely voice my angst when things I enjoy are fiddled with or removed) are reacting to various projects is wrong, because I'm sure this is what you're seeing in good faith... but I truly do not think it is actually the case at all. There have been countless smaller projects where the general reaction is indifference, "wait and see," or outright optimism. But those are generally not the MAJOR projects where classics are getting touched/removed (Muppet*Vision, Carousel) or important/legendary areas wiped away (Rivers of America); of course, those are on a scale of importance that is going to generate a louder reaction than a refurb of Buzz Lightyear or Test Track (where nobody was particularly disturbed about what changes might be made, and most were positively anticipatory). Those are just two recent examples that are in a similar-ish category as Carousel's refresh.

Brian G. said:
And if the direction a company is taking consistently no longer appeals to someone, that's okay too. Sometimes the answer isn't that the company is wrong. Sometimes it's simply, "Maybe this isn't for me anymore."
Click to expand...
If a person doesn't like what they do with COP, or how the new Cars area ultimately impacts Frontierland and the general "feel" of that part of the park... they're supposed to never go on Haunted Mansion or Pirates again? No more Big Thunder or Space Mountain?

I think there has to be room for more nuance than that. Ambivalence about one thing doesn't mean an absence of joy for something else.
 
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OrlLover

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  • Yesterday at 10:52 PM
  • #551
I’m hoping for the best with this update and I trust the team that was put together to refurb this classic attraction are doing their best to preserve what they can of its original feel and also incorporate newer elements as well.
 
Brian G.

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  • Yesterday at 11:03 PM
  • #552
belloq87 said:
I can't tell you that your perception of how people (and I, because I tend to freely voice my angst when things I enjoy are fiddled with or removed) are reacting to various projects is wrong, because I'm sure this is what you're seeing in good faith... but I truly do not think it is actually the case at all. There have been countless smaller projects where the general reaction is indifference, "wait and see," or outright optimism. But those are generally not the MAJOR projects where classics are getting touched/removed (Muppet*Vision, Carousel) or important/legendary areas wiped away (Rivers of America); of course, those are on a scale of importance that is going to generate a louder reaction than a refurb of Buzz Lightyear or Test Track (where nobody was particularly disturbed about what changes might be made, and most were positively anticipatory). Those are just two recent examples that are in a similar-ish category as Carousel's refresh.


If a person doesn't like what they do with COP, or how the new Cars area ultimately impacts Frontierland and the general "feel" of that part of the park... they're supposed to never go on Haunted Mansion or Pirates again? No more Big Thunder or Space Mountain?

I think there has to be room for more nuance than that. Ambivalence about one thing doesn't mean an absence of joy for something else.
Click to expand...

I appreciate you saying I'm approaching it in good faith, but I have to push back vehemently on the idea that this isn't happening.

Part of the nature of what I do is that I'm chronically online. Between the forums and 300,000+ followers across our social channels, I spend a lot of time reading reactions to these announcements. With Universal, I see this pattern constantly. With Disney, since we're not Inside Disney, it's not quite as much, but it was impossible to miss today (not to mention Bluey the other day).

When I see people describing a refresh of COP as Disney "raping" the attraction before they've experienced a single second of it, I'm not going to pretend that's a "wait & see" reaction.

Then I came over here and saw versions of the same arguments, albeit much more measured and nuanced. A lot of my frustration comes from social media, more so than here.

So while you may disagree on how common it is, I have a hard time accepting that it isn't happening. I see it way too often for that.

To your other argument, my point is more about patterns.

If someone dislikes one project, that's an opinion. If someone dislikes 5 projects, sure, that's still an opinion. But if every major announcement, change, and new direction is met with the same negativity or doubt - where liking something new becomes the exception rather than the norm - I think it's fair to ask whether the issue is the person or the company's overall direction.

Many of these discussions start from the premise that the change itself is a problem. A change can be good, bad, or somewhere in between. But I don't think the mere fact that Disney touched something old is evidence that they've made a mistake. I HATE that Universal touched Jaws, but the Resort is better for it.

Walt was famously against the idea of Disneyland becoming a museum. Yet every time Disney touches something old, one of the first arguments is that they should preserve it because it's always been there. I understand the emotional attachment, but those two ideas don't really align.

Test Track is a poor comparison because a large portion of the fanbase felt it needed improvement. People are naturally more optimistic when something perceived as flawed is being changed.

The real test is what happens when Disney touches something people already love. That's where the loudest pushback almost always appears. That doesn't make the criticism wrong, but it does suggest that attachment to the current version is influencing the reaction as much as the specifics of the project itself.

I stand by the fact that I genuinely think we'd still be having many of the same conversations even if different years were chosen, because the pushback is more about the changing COP period.

Again, I'd just like to see a little more "let's see how this turns out".

And to use the restaurant analogy again: You're absolutely allowed to keep going because you love a few dishes. But if you consistently dislike most of the menu changes, specials, etc, eventually it's reasonable to ask whether the restaurant is actually the problem or whether you're expecting it to be something it no longer is.
 
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belloq87

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  • Yesterday at 11:35 PM
  • #553
Brian G. said:
Part of the nature of what I do is that I'm chronically online. Between the forums and 300,000+ followers across our social channels, I spend a lot of time reading reactions to these announcements.

When I see people describing a refresh of COP as Disney "raping" the attraction before they've experienced a single second of it, I'm not going to pretend that's a "wait & see" reaction.

Then I came over here and saw versions of the same arguments, albeit much more measured and nuanced. A lot of my frustration comes from social media, more so than here.
Click to expand...
I can't answer for what other people outside of this community* are saying about any project, so it's a little unfair to bring that baggage into the conversation between those of us who are actually here trying to have this discussion. I'm fine with anyone being frustrated with my opinions (really!), but at least be frustrated with my real positions, don't conflate them with more incendiary ones elsewhere. I acknowledge you granted our takes are more "measured and nuanced"... so let's discuss from that starting point.

*I'd also note that my commentary above relating to positive reactions is contextual to this forum, because it's the only theme park community I actively participate in and could comment on in any informed way.

Brian G. said:
I stand by the fact that I genuinely think we'd still be having many of the same conversations even if different years were chosen, because the pushback is more about the changing COP period.
Click to expand...
You wouldn't from me, because I think you could literally search my comment history and see what I've said about the need for Carousel to be updated.

Note: I'm not really asking you to check and do my work for me. I just know I've had a pretty consistent position about it, and that position is not "Don't ever change anything."

Edited to add: This was six years ago...
belloq87 said:
I want to make it known that I’m not advocating for Carousel of Progress to remain in Magic Kingdom and stagnate. It absolutely needs some love.

To my mind, there are three options (all would involve sprucing up the existing scenes included, but otherwise not really changing them):

1. Keep the first three scenes and re-do the final scene to better reflect 21st century technological advancements.

2. Keep the 1900s scene, make the 1940s scene the second scene, create a new third scene for the 1980s, and create a new final scene for the 2020s. An “every 40 years” sort of passage of time could work quite well.

3. Keep the first three scenes, and make the final scene set in the 1960s. This is obviously the most “retro” option, but it would be in keeping with the current “every 20 years” narrative, and could pay tribute to the ‘60s “gee whiz” optimism/futurism that informed so much of the company’s output in that era.

I would personally go with option 2. Half the classic experience, half a new one.
Click to expand...
True, I did not have "change everything" on my Bingo card.
 
Last edited: Yesterday at 11:45 PM
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Brian G.

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  • Yesterday at 11:57 PM
  • #554
belloq87 said:
I can't answer for what other people outside of this community* are saying about any project, so it's a little unfair to bring that baggage into the conversation between those of us who are actually here trying to have this discussion. I'm fine with anyone being frustrated with my opinions (really!), but at least be frustrated with my real positions, don't conflate them with more incendiary ones elsewhere. I acknowledge you granted our takes are more "measured and nuanced"... so let's discuss from that starting point.

*I'd also note that my commentary above relating to positive reactions is contextual to this forum, because it's the only theme park community I actively participate in and could comment on in any informed way.


You wouldn't from me, because I think you could literally search my comment history and see what I've said about the need for Carousel to be updated.

Note: I'm not really asking you to check and do my work for me. I just know I've had a pretty consistent position about it, and that position is not "Don't ever change anything."

Edited to add: This was six years ago...

True, I did not have "change everything" on my Bingo card.
Click to expand...

To be clear, I wasn't trying to lump you in with the more extreme reactions I've seen elsewhere.

I agree your position is more nuanced than "don't ever change anything," and I don't think that's what you're arguing.

Where I think we still disagree is that I see a broader pattern, both here and elsewhere, where major changes to beloved attractions are often viewed through a much more skeptical lens than additions or changes to things people are less attached to.

But my frustration is aimed more at the broader reaction than at your individual take.
 
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Jake S

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  • Today at 12:10 AM
  • #555
Brian G. said:
Where I think we still disagree is that I see a broader pattern, both here and elsewhere, where major changes to beloved attractions are often viewed through a much more skeptical lens than additions or changes to things people are less attached to.
Click to expand...
I do think there's nuance here, too. There's obviously people who simply don't want things to change. But I also think there are people skeptical that Disney can actually pull off an improvement on this type of attraction. I think that, at the very least, modern Disney has been a mixed bag when it comes to script-heavy updates.
 
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belloq87

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  • Today at 12:10 AM
  • #556
Brian G. said:
To be clear, I wasn't trying to lump you in with the more extreme reactions I've seen elsewhere.

I agree your position is more nuanced than "don't ever change anything," and I don't think that's what you're arguing.

But my frustration is aimed more at the broader reaction than at your individual take.
Click to expand...
I get it. I would just say, forget those people because we're the ones here actually engaging! :lol:

Brian G. said:
Where I think we still disagree is that I see a broader pattern, both here and elsewhere, where major changes to beloved attractions are often viewed through a much more skeptical lens than additions or changes to things people are less attached to.
Click to expand...
We actually don't disagree on this in the most literal sense.

We do disagree in the sense that I think this is understandable to be more skeptical of meddling with something you're really passionate about than something you care less about, because there is more at stake for your enjoyment if the change/replacement isn't on the same level.

I'll even concede that it's driven to a great extent (but not entirely) by emotional connection. But we're participating in an online theme park forum, of course we're more emotionally-connected to this stuff than the norm!
 
Parkscope Joe

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  • Today at 8:38 AM
  • #557
There is a new level of culture warriors trying to make a name and a dime with this stuff. Like this is just silly.
 

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Mad Dog

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  • Today at 8:50 AM
  • #558
My personal bottom line on major Disney changes is that if it's an attraction that I really like a lot, I'd rather have them make changes than close it down. I've been pretty comfortable with most of the recent alterations, even the one I was most skeptical of. I'll definitely miss those early scenes of CoP, but most importantly the attraction will now survive to see another day. What the heck, I might even end up liking the end result better than the present.
 
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Floridaguy34

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  • Today at 10:32 AM
  • #559
with the COP news than the rumors from a couple of years ago about tom hanks replacing jean shepard might be true
 
Thatguyoverwhere

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  • Today at 12:14 PM
  • #560
Parkscope Joe said:
disneyparksblog.com

A Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow: The Ever-Changing Carousel of Progress

For the last 60 years, the Carousel of Progress has served as a powerful reflection of optimism, innovation, and family over time.
disneyparksblog.com disneyparksblog.com
Click to expand...
Honestly it kind of makes sense. While it did technically still illustrate progress happening, it felt weird that it only covered a few specific decades that most people these days never even lived through, and then skipped to an 80's-looking "future". There's been at least as much, or arguably more progress--both in technology and in society--during the decades after the ones explicitly shown, than there is in the decades that are shown currently. So it's long overdue for CoP to actually highlight that.

It would be nice if they could span more decades to cover closer to a century, but I guess that would sort of break from the original concept of illustrating the change that happens with each successive generation.
 
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